From andrew at plexpod.com Wed Apr 6 18:07:56 2005 From: andrew at plexpod.com (Andrew Yochum) Date: Tue Mar 4 07:27:37 2008 Subject: [python] Boo Message-ID: <20050406220738.GF16463@zoidberg.digitalpulp.com> Hey all, Seeing how well trafficked this list is, this may fall on deaf ears, but thought I'd pass it along anyway. Boo is a new language for the .NET framework that is heavily inspired by Python. Sounds cool to me. I'd give it a shot if I ever were forced to do .NET stuff. http://boo.codehaus.org/ Long live Python, Andrew -- Andrew Yochum Plexpod andrew@plexpod.com 718-360-0879 From bob at redivi.com Wed Apr 6 19:09:59 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Mar 4 07:27:37 2008 Subject: [python] Boo In-Reply-To: <20050406220738.GF16463@zoidberg.digitalpulp.com> References: <20050406220738.GF16463@zoidberg.digitalpulp.com> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2005, at 3:07 PM, Andrew Yochum wrote: > Seeing how well trafficked this list is, this may fall on deaf ears, > but > thought I'd pass it along anyway. > > Boo is a new language for the .NET framework that is heavily inspired > by > Python. Sounds cool to me. I'd give it a shot if I ever were forced > to > do .NET stuff. > > http://boo.codehaus.org/ There's also IronPython, which is actually Python and is sponsored by Microsoft. And Python.NET which allows you to integrate the existing CPython runtime with .NET. And, of course, any JVM-over-CLR will let you use Jython on .NET. Boo annoys me because the syntax is very close to Python, but not in some important ways (like docstring indentation), so you have to perform all kinds of trivial but annoying reformatting in order to run Boo code on Python or vice versa. -bob From andrew at plexpod.com Wed Apr 6 20:12:51 2005 From: andrew at plexpod.com (Andrew Yochum) Date: Tue Mar 4 07:27:37 2008 Subject: [python] Boo In-Reply-To: References: <20050406220738.GF16463@zoidberg.digitalpulp.com> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2005, at 7:09 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > There's also IronPython, which is actually Python and is sponsored by > Microsoft. And Python.NET which allows you to integrate the existing > CPython runtime with .NET. And, of course, any JVM-over-CLR will let > you use Jython on .NET. Awesome. Have you used IronPython? Is moving python code to it trivial or even perfectly seamless? It appeals to me as an interesting method for .NET integration should the need arise. I'm blown away by their claim of "up to 1.7x faster than Python-2.3". Got a link for Python.NET? I can't seem to find anything. But if I'm following what you've suggested, that sounds nifty, but I'm not sure how the cross runtimes bindings would happen. Seems like it could be messy. > Boo annoys me because the syntax is very close to Python, but not in > some important ways (like docstring indentation), so you have to > perform all kinds of trivial but annoying reformatting in order to run > Boo code on Python or vice versa. I can understand that, especially with the alternatives listed above. Andrew From andrew at plexpod.com Wed Apr 6 20:19:18 2005 From: andrew at plexpod.com (Andrew Yochum) Date: Tue Mar 4 07:27:37 2008 Subject: [python] Boo In-Reply-To: References: <20050406220738.GF16463@zoidberg.digitalpulp.com> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2005, at 8:12 PM, Andrew Yochum wrote: > Got a link for Python.NET? I can't seem to find anything. But if I'm > following what you've suggested, that sounds nifty, but I'm not sure > how the cross runtimes bindings would happen. Seems like it could be > messy. Nevermind. Google's intelligence (or the "." in Python.NET) got in the way. For others' benefit: http://www.zope.org/Members/Brian/PythonNet/ Andrew From bob at redivi.com Wed Apr 6 20:26:56 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Mar 4 07:27:37 2008 Subject: [python] Boo In-Reply-To: References: <20050406220738.GF16463@zoidberg.digitalpulp.com> Message-ID: <04630866e8d634ff91ce2fa57c3b1e18@redivi.com> On Apr 6, 2005, at 5:12 PM, Andrew Yochum wrote: > On Apr 6, 2005, at 7:09 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> There's also IronPython, which is actually Python and is sponsored by >> Microsoft. And Python.NET which allows you to integrate the existing >> CPython runtime with .NET. And, of course, any JVM-over-CLR will let >> you use Jython on .NET. > > Awesome. Have you used IronPython? Is moving python code to it > trivial or even perfectly seamless? It appeals to me as an > interesting method for .NET integration should the need arise. I'm > blown away by their claim of "up to 1.7x faster than Python-2.3". IronPython is still very pre-1.0, but it exists, and it can run some code. It's a Microsoft sponsored project with (currently) 1.5 full time people working on it, with a regular release schedule, under a liberal enough license. It's probably not a good solution to any problem today, but it will be at some point. > Got a link for Python.NET? I can't seem to find anything. But if I'm > following what you've suggested, that sounds nifty, but I'm not sure > how the cross runtimes bindings would happen. Seems like it could be > messy. PyObjC is a runtime bridge that works extremely well between CPython and the Objective-C runtime.. they're a lot more similar to each other than CPython and the CLR are, but it's not messy (from a user's perspective.. the implementation, of course, can't be that elegant). -bob From andrew at plexpod.com Wed Apr 6 20:40:26 2005 From: andrew at plexpod.com (Andrew Yochum) Date: Tue Mar 4 07:27:37 2008 Subject: [python] Boo In-Reply-To: <04630866e8d634ff91ce2fa57c3b1e18@redivi.com> References: <20050406220738.GF16463@zoidberg.digitalpulp.com> <04630866e8d634ff91ce2fa57c3b1e18@redivi.com> Message-ID: <763e5038349d9c4a6f8734322df79a91@plexpod.com> On Apr 6, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > PyObjC is a runtime bridge that works extremely well between CPython > and the Objective-C runtime.. they're a lot more similar to each other > than CPython and the CLR are, but it's not messy (from a user's > perspective.. the implementation, of course, can't be that elegant) Yeah, it was more the implementation that I had in mind. From reading a short bit about PythonNET I learned that it is only one way. You can only write python code to script the CLR, but no CLR code can call the CPython runtime... yet. It seems PyObjC has achieved that already, though. Thats certainly an appealing method of writing Cocoa apps! Andrew From bob at redivi.com Wed Apr 6 20:51:45 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Mar 4 07:27:37 2008 Subject: [python] Boo In-Reply-To: <763e5038349d9c4a6f8734322df79a91@plexpod.com> References: <20050406220738.GF16463@zoidberg.digitalpulp.com> <04630866e8d634ff91ce2fa57c3b1e18@redivi.com> <763e5038349d9c4a6f8734322df79a91@plexpod.com> Message-ID: <3862533266d87a434d0406788e1e0edf@redivi.com> On Apr 6, 2005, at 5:40 PM, Andrew Yochum wrote: > > On Apr 6, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: >> PyObjC is a runtime bridge that works extremely well between CPython >> and the Objective-C runtime.. they're a lot more similar to each >> other than CPython and the CLR are, but it's not messy (from a user's >> perspective.. the implementation, of course, can't be that elegant) > > Yeah, it was more the implementation that I had in mind. From reading > a short bit about PythonNET I learned that it is only one way. You > can only write python code to script the CLR, but no CLR code can call > the CPython runtime... yet. It seems PyObjC has achieved that > already, though. Thats certainly an appealing method of writing Cocoa > apps! PyObjC is *FAR* more mature (Version 0.1, 13 September 1996) than PythonNET. There was, of course, a time when it had similar limitations. The problems PythonNET has aren't intractable, just non-trivial. -bob From andrew at plexpod.com Wed Apr 27 00:25:11 2005 From: andrew at plexpod.com (Andrew Yochum) Date: Tue Mar 4 07:27:37 2008 Subject: [python] Plone on Gentoo? Message-ID: <20050427042443.GM6467@desario.homelinux.net> Does anyone out there run Plone on Gentoo built from portage? Is it well maintained? Any tips, gotchas, etc? In my experience, Zope + CMF apps are difficult to maintain (read: upgrades/patches and compatibility/interoperability), and need careful attention. I've never deployed Plone though. And letting portage maintain it makes nervous. I do see that some care has gone into managing plone on gentoo. I get started with the gentoo-specific zope mgmt framework using this italian "quick start" guide: http://sprint.zope.it/Doc/Zope/howto/plone_gentoo Though, my Italian is limited to that which I can glean from knowing Spanish. The obvious bits + a lot of previous Zope+CMF knowledge got me a working install relatively painlessly.` Andrew -- Andrew Yochum Plexpod andrew@plexpod.com 718-360-0879 From lists at genoverly.net Wed Apr 27 05:42:02 2005 From: lists at genoverly.net (lists@genoverly.net) Date: Tue Mar 4 07:27:37 2008 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[python]_Plone_on_Gentoo??= Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1DQj5P0i2F-0004dH@mrelay.perfora.net> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:25:11 -0400 Andrew Yochum wrote: > Does anyone out there run Plone on Gentoo built from portage? Is it > well maintained? Any tips, gotchas, etc? > In general, I have found portage is very hot and very tight. I have not installed Plone on Gentoo, but I have a few Gentoo boxen around. We could do an installfest if you want and find out if you like what you see! I did a quick search on bugzilla and did not find much: http://bugs.gentoo.org/ I have found their forums to be a *really* valuable resource: http://forums.gentoo.org/. I found this little snippet dated April 16, 2005.. it looks simple. ---begin forum post--(use at own risk)----- After being frustrated for a little, here are the following steps to get a plone site: emerge -avb plone zope-config Then configure the new zope instance as zope-plone [accept the defaults, create a login user and password for zope]. Then zprod-manager add And add all items presented, ignore errors of missing things and then start zope /etc/init.d/zope-plone start Point your browser to http://localhost:8080 and click on the start using ZMI, login then in the root ZMI and then Add->Plone Site Voila a plone site. ---end forum post------- Let me know how it goes, Michael -- From andrew at plexpod.com Wed Apr 27 11:33:47 2005 From: andrew at plexpod.com (Andrew Yochum) Date: Tue Mar 4 07:27:37 2008 Subject: [python] Plone on Gentoo? In-Reply-To: <0MKz1m-1DQj5P0i2F-0004dH@mrelay.perfora.net> <20050427042443.GM6467@desario.homelinux.net> References: <0MKz1m-1DQj5P0i2F-0004dH@mrelay.perfora.net> <20050427042443.GM6467@desario.homelinux.net> Message-ID: <20050427153327.GA527@zoidberg.digitalpulp.com> Genny, On Wed, Apr 27, 2005 at 11:42:02AM +0200, lists@genoverly.net wrote: > > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:25:11 -0400 > Andrew Yochum wrote: > > > Does anyone out there run Plone on Gentoo built from portage? Is it > > well maintained? Any tips, gotchas, etc? > > > > In general, I have found portage is very hot and very tight. I agree. But when you've experienced the hairiness of zope+cmf dependencies in the wild you'll understand why I'm asking! ;-) > I have not installed Plone on Gentoo, but I have a few Gentoo boxen > around. We could do an installfest if you want and find out if you > like what you see! > > I did a quick search on bugzilla and did not find much: > http://bugs.gentoo.org/ > I have found their forums to be a *really* valuable resource: > http://forums.gentoo.org/. I found this little snippet dated April 16, > 2005.. it looks simple. Yeah - some reason I missed that in my googling and got by with the Italian howto. > Let me know how it goes, If you had read my full message, you might've found my somewhat suttle last sentence that I had a working install when I first wrote ;-) ... > > http://sprint.zope.it/Doc/Zope/howto/plone_gentoo > > Though, my Italian is limited to that which I can glean from knowing > > Spanish. The obvious bits + a lot of previous Zope+CMF knowledge got me > > a working install relatively painlessly.` A bit about that install... It works, seems to be fully functional. I'm guessing I probably would have seen the typical Gentoo setup guide after "emerge -v zope" instructing me to use zope-config to setup an instance, but I did a "emerge -v plone" and well, I missed it. Definite a small fault of the process, not just a Plone/Zope thing but a emerge thing. There were a dozen or so dependencies that were also emerged, all Zope "Products" that CMF + Plone use. These needed to be added to the zope instance I created with zope-config by using zprod-manager. The way zprod-manager does this seems to be similar to the way gentoo's webapp-config works - it copies the desired version of the product into the destination instance of zope and adds it to a little metadata file listing the installed Products in that instance. So, my current summary of Plone on Gentoo goes like this: Upon first emerging Plone you get a full set of packages that when added to a zope instance will give a properly working Plone instance, assuming the package maintainers did their dependency homework. When updating Plone (and its dependencies) via portage, your instance of Plone will not be updated - you'll have to do this with zprod-manager by hand. This could possibly be a PITA because of the list of dependencies Plone has, and zprod-manager doesn't seem to pay attention to them - doh! But if you just leave it alone, you should be OK, but you might be stuck with a bug riddled version of some Products. My tenative conclusion: Gentoo doesn't seem to make managing Zope+CMF+Plone much (if at all) easier than doing so by hand. What it does do is get the packages locally on the machine for you to copy into your instance. What it doesn't do is dependency management and installation of Products in your zope instance. I may be particularly sensitive to the issues related this as my experience with Zope+CMF is mostly in the instance of a custom Plone-like CMF-based CMS that could be basically considered internal/consultingware. We experienced lots of headaches in upgrading to newer versions of CMF and related Zope Products because of API changes and new side-effects of them. Plone is more like shrinkwrap OSS. Because of the situation of Plone in the latter, it should be much easier to deal with the scenario of wanting/needing to update your instance. And, it should be clear is not a problem particular to Gentoo, nor is it the Gentoo or gentoo's Plone package maintainer's task to solve this problem for the Zope+CMF+Plone worlds. I may be overestimatig the problem here, too, but I think it clearly exists. Andrew -- Andrew Yochum Plexpod andrew@plexpod.com 718-360-0879